Nasty Lurkers …

wow…yes and yes and yes!

I wish we could have come to L.A. this weekend too. We had too many friends there were planning on spending most of our time with sick…so we opted to stay well at home for Max. Ended up being a really great birthday weekend.

I will be coming in May. I’m not planning on attending Origins, simply because we’re bringing Max…but I’ll meet up with everyone all the same.

About time somebody said this in the open. However, I have doubts the Pharisees you speak to actually know what they have become.

you tell them… i’m thinking about writing on the same thing but it will be a little bit longer and i want alex to look over it to make sure i don’t make things worse… can you believe this guy?

It really scares me when people start calling others Pharisees.

I am part of the vox community. Well sort of, I signed up for a blog the other day but I’ve yet to post. I’m not much of a writer. I found your blog because I love reading peoples thoughts. So several times a day I get on the vox and browse. You had recently posted so I clicked on your blog. I guess it was just luck.
What did the people you called “Pharisees” do to hurt you?
I am a Christian as well but I have to admit that Christianity wears me out.
I am thankful that you responded to me but I have to warn you that I am not a great thinker or anything like that. So if you want to have a conversation be prepared not to be wowed.
I am proud of you for being a pioneer. That’s what I long for in my life.
joey.voxtroplis.com I would not waste your time going there yet.

Christianity wears me out because I am suppose to believe all the right stuff. And the right stuff is different dependent on who you talk to. Not only that but this group is against that group. By time I listen to everyone and try to be faithful to following Christ I’m worn out. I come to a point where I can no longer make a judgement call on what is good and what is not good when it comes to my faith. And then when I tell people I don’t have a position on a certain topic because it has all become meaningless to me I am grilled on how I can stand for nothing. Here is the only position I have now days. Jesus loves people. That is all I know. Everything else confuses me and makes me tired.

Springfield, MO.

http://www.worldviewweekend.com/secure/cwnetwork/article.php?&ArticleID=513

Sounds like a happy guy…

hey tina,

don’t lose too much sleep over this stuff, good things are coming out of it, really good things.

it’s funny that you mentioned “tabloid” cuz alex was excited saying “yes, i made the news”, and i told him “yeah, unfortunately it’s the national enquirer”… hehe.

luv ya too and wiill see ya tomorra =)

Thanks J Smith for posting that link. It better helped me to understand the converstion. I really love Alex and Erwin’s teachings. They give me hope.

hahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh man…I just spent the last 20 minutes reading that garbage and realizing that maybe I AM supposed to be here at the old Voxtropolis! I wish more of you here knew me…I have sadly never been to a Mosaic type thing, but have found Voxtropolis by going the long way around (we can’t all live in LA you know!) I am just a rock musician and magazine writer who happened to play at some conferences that Erwin spoke at…I had and in many ways still have, no idea what the whole Emerging Church thing is..nor could I care less about the labels that people would try and put on it. there is a hurting world out there, and It will be a cold day in hell before I am going to let the lost get away without seeing Christ’s love in me. This article was ridiculous, and I would suggest this…

If the Emergent Church is to be anything at all, it must be free of Christian labels (not free of Doctrine)… So let this guy and any others say what they will…the first century church had it’s lions and stake burnings, we have our media. Embrace this negative press in the way that the early church leaders embraced their martyrdom…more wood for the fire I say.

Joe:

Your statement about different Christian groups being ‘against’ each other made me think of a book ~ have you read “A Generous Orthodoxy” by Brian McClaren? His books have really changed my perspective on being a Christian the past few years, and I am still working my way through this one ~ I would highly recommend it!

Hi friends (I guess I’m lurking, no harm intended though, I assure you),
I’m sorry there has been some hurts over the article posted at CWN by Brannon Howse. I can assure you, Brannon’s primary concern is guarding the church against error, which I hope you’d agree is an important cause. At the same time, if Brannon went too far in his critique, as a columnist for his website, please allow me to extend an apology to everyone connected with Mosaic. I hope you can understand how Brannon came to his conclusions, even if they may be wrong in some points (for example, I am aware that Mosaic is not officially connected with Emergent and so Brannon’s assuming so was wrong). For somebody unfamiliar with your church, movement, culture, whatever… all of this talk about looking for “the mystic” and links to another site with “Shamanism” in the title can be somewhat disturbing and apparently misleading. I guess, agreeing with Brannon, I don’t understand why a Christian group would use such potentially misleading terminology as their means of communicating their mission? As one who has seen countless lives led astray by participation in New Age mysticism or Eastern mysticism, I can understand why Brannon was alarmed by seeing your use of these terms. Furthermore, I have traveled all over the world and I have seen Shamanism and its evils (demonic possession) firsthand; again, I guess I don’t know why you’d want to associate yourself with this practice, even if it’s just some sort of metaphor… how are the uninformed to know that? So, again, while Brannon may have overreached in points of his article, I understand the origins of his confusion and alarm and I hope that you can appreciate that. Let me say a few things on a personal note… Brannon Howse is a truly good guy and I guarantee you that if you ever spent any time with him in person you would walk away feeling blessed by your time with him. So, please don’t allow your frustrations over his article to build-up an animosity against him. Also, please know that this past week I have communicated with Brannon numerous times trying to clarify the true hearts and passions of Erwin and Alex McManus, as far as I know them. I have had the privilege of spending time with Erwin on a few occassions, during his teachings and visits to Bethel Seminary, and I have thoroughly enjoyed his company and have been blessed by my interactions with him (he even bought me a filet mignon steak lunch once!). I know that Erwin is no wacky liberal and I know that he is no “friend” of the official Emergent group. At the same time, I probably don’t agree with everything Mosaic or their pastors do or say (again, some of this language stuff mentioned above), but I do believe your heart’s passion is for reaching the lost. So, keep doing that, keep introducing and bringing people to Jesus! I don’t think we all have to be on the same page on every little thing, but we do have to be on the same mission! Thanks for hearing me out. Again, I am sorry for any hurts that this article has caused your community. Hopefully this situation will inspire all of us to consider more carefully the consequences of our actions and choices… and hopefully this whole incident will bring all of us closer to genuine Christ-likeness. If you’re ever in MN please don’t hesitate to look me up. I’d be happy to buy any of you “pieces” of Mosaic a coffee and have a chance to talk about all of this in person. Until then, God’s peace to you…
Jason Carlson
CWN Columnist amongst other things
jason@salem-baptist.org

Just wanted to say hello to all of you and add that I find your reactions to Tina’s post are fascinating.

To the victory of Christ in the earth—

Dean Sharp (Tina’s husband, the shaman of “shamanism, love, and the Warrior Poet”, and Executive Director of VOXTROPOLIS HotSpots, North America)

Joe, definitely understand where you’re at and what you’re feeling. I tire not with following after Christ but dealing with church people who live in an isolated bubble intent on asserting themselves to everyone inside and outside the bubble.

Start with what you’re sure of “Jesus loves people” and go do something to show that love to people. Not with a church, preferably not with church people. Just follow Jesus’ example of loving people and see where you end up. As far as the ‘right stuff’, dig into the bible for yourself. Not somebodies sermon, not a book about the bible. Find a translation you can understand and read for yourself what it says. Let God tell you the right stuff, not those who interpret it through their own lenses.

I look forward to you starting your blog entries so we can keep in touch.

breathe fire.

J Smith, et al.,

The article is nauseating. I smell self-righteous, reactionary american christianity at it’s finest.

I wonder if he bothered to confront Alex or Erwin directly before he labeled them heretical.

A cursory examination of his articles place the blame on everything wrong in the world and church with those who don’t agree with his interpretation of the KJV bible.

Hi Tina,
Just wanted to drop a comment - I met you this past weekend at the House Blend thingy…. Great to hang with you and the rest of the crew. God’s richest blessing on you guys!

Thanks Jason for your comments. It took courage for you to post. I appreciate what you had to say, and it caused me to think through my own use of words, symbols and such. Thanks again for your courage…

Dean — I am curious. Why the Shaman identity? Not a judgement, just a question. I’d like to understand, and right now I don’t.

I wasn’t going to comment here or post about the article. I’ve seen too many of these kinds of things, in my 10+ years at Mosaic. They aren’t worth paying attention to. There are just some people who don’t (and perhaps will never) “get it” about Mosaic. They have a right to say their piece as much as we have to use the symbolism we do. But I don’t have to read them.

However, Jason’s comment brought me out of lurk mode and into the light for a moment…. now I’m going back into hiding…

Lu,

I so appreciate the spirit and tact of your question. I have deep concerns about reaching the world we live in. Those concerns are not in any way weakening my resolve to tell the biblical story, but they do cause me to question the western Christian culture story. Simply put, I don’t think western Christianity (as a culture) any longer possesses the necessary “language” to communicate Christ to the world we live in.

It’s funny (funny tragic, not funny ha ha) that american cultural christianity has virtually turned into the cult of the written Word yet spends such little time thinking through the words we read and hear. It gets caught up in whether the proper catch-phrases and cliches are coming out of your mouth and ignores what’s really being said.

Well, I don’t want to consume Tina’s post on Lurkers with more thoughts on shamanism …

Check out my latest post at http://dean.voxtropolis.com/ to see what I think about being a shaman. You definitely won’t find any christian-culture-truth there, but see if you don’t see some scriptural truth.

Thanks.

Jason, I appreciate the grace with which you present yourself in response to the comments here. However, the fact that this writer attacks without finding the information in advance and then chooses to not respond himself when he’s been given additional information is not acceptable. As one who is on the very periphery of anything related to church, I am appalled and confused how this behavior exhibits any correlation to what I find in the Bible.

His comments reach to many, many more than those involved with Mosaic. For those on the frontlines dealing with people who have no church involvement, the words communicated from ‘Mosaic’ are not what’s causing confusion. The inciting libel like this person is communicating is what’s making it hard to make a difference outside the church walls.

I noticed that comments about my comment above reached as far as other VOX sites, so I thought I should add this: I used the descriptor “Pharisee” boldly because I know the type. I was one fifteen years.

Hi Tina, found you through Niza!
Yeah, me too, Dave. I’ve posted lyrics to a bluegrass song “Recovering Pharisee” on my site. It humbles me to remember where I’ve come from.
I’ve read through the article and I was saddened and a little unnerved. This is exactly the type of situation Jesus had in mind when he prayed for us:

I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

wowie lady…how many kids do you have? i thought it was just Jason?

Don’t apologize, that was an awesome “vent”!

Hi everyone! I hope we don’t spend too much time worrying about lurkers. That would make me sad. But I do feel defensive of you guys sometimes, Tina. But then I know you can handle it.

just a thought…

MAYA is sitting down studying a bible. GREG walks up to her.

Greg: Thanks for being willing to talk to me. Sam said you guys might be able to help.

Maya: How can I serve you, brother?

Greg: Oh. Right on.

Greg (cont’d) It’s my cousin, he’s in the hospital from a stab wound. Now, I’m not usually into organized religion, but right now I’ll take all the help I can get.

Change- shifts through material?

Maya: Wait, you’re not a believer?

Greg: In what?

Maya: Before we step any further into it, I have to ask you a very important question.

Greg: Shoot

Maya: If you died tonight do you know where you’d end up?

Greg: Uh…probably Rose Hills Memorial. That’s where uncle Burt ended up-

Maya: No. I’m talking about in the sweet by and by.

Greg: The sweet what?

Maya: Pearly gates or Lake of Fire.

Greg: I’m sorry I-

Maya: If you died would you go to Heaven or Hell?!

Greg: What does me dying tonight have to do with my cousin?-

Maya: Today is the day of Salvation.

Greg: Oh got it.

He searches his pockets.

Greg (cont’d): I already gave to you guys over the holidays, but here’s a quarter.

She pockets the quarter and keeps moving.

Maya: God cannot not help you unless you are part of his flock.

Greg: His what?

Maya: So, you think you will go to heaven if you died tonight?

Greg: Sure, I guess.

Maya: Ha! We’ll see, if God asked you “why should I let you enter the pearly gates what would you say?�

Greg: Is this a riddle, I think I know this one?

Maya: Just answer the question

Greg: O.K, I guess I’d say…I’m nice to old people and …I’m pretty handy with gates?

Maya: Good works!

(thinks he got it right)

Greg: Thanks, what’d I win?

Maya: No heathen, it means you answered wrong.

Greg: I did?

Maya: For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

Greg: Oh, others didn’t get that right either?

Maya: Listen, in order for me to help you, you need to be justified and then sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

Greg: Sounds scary but if it’ll help my cousin I think I’m up for it.

Stretches out his hands

Greg: Ok, sanitize me

Maya: I can’t do it for you, you have cry out to Jesus, the Lamb of God.

Greg: Wait a minute, God’s got pets?

Maya: BLASPHEMY!!

Greg: What’d I say?

Maya: That may be the unpardonable one. You may have just damned yourself to hell.

Starts racing through her bible.

Greg: Is that serious? Just tell him I like Lamb. Uh…no don’t tell him that.

Maya: It’s better if you sit and gnash your teeth right now.

Greg sits down.

Greg: Did you say gnash?!

She locates the passage in the bible.

Maya: Oh you’re saved!

Greg: I am?

Maya: Saved not SAVED. But you need to call out to Jesus for the redemption of your sins. Repeat after me, Oh lamb of God.

Greg: Oh Lamb of God

Maya: Louder

Greg: Oh lamb of God!

Maya: Wash me in your blood!

Greg: I don’t want to be washed in blood, what kind of religion is this?

Maya: No, it’s not like that. You are asking Jesus Christ to come into your heart.

Greg: How is that not bloody?

Maya: If you’re not washed by the blood, you cannot become part of the elect of God.

Greg: I’m not even running. Hey, I can appreciate animal sacrifices as well as the next guy, but I had no idea it was so…involved. I can’t do this.

Maya: (indignant) You mean you don’t want to repent of your idolatrous, evil ways, throw yourself on the mercy seat of the Lion of Judah, the Horn of Salvation and join the Redeemed of God?

Greg: I don’t even understand a word you are saying! I just wanted for you to pray for my cousin.

Maya: Oh…I get it.

Greg: Whew…finally.

Maya: You are incapable of hearing the truth. The Gospel is veiled to all those who are perishing.

Greg: You mean you won’t help me?

Maya: If you don’t have ears to hear, God can’t help you, and if he can’t, neither can I…um…good luck with that.

Fade Lights

LOVE THE SKIT… People who write like that are just… well… really cool.

Wow! I am excited to have discovered “blogging,” Alex McManus, Dean Sharp, their passionate wives, Niza and Tina and living the Mysterious Christ path. I knew I wasn’t alone! I just didn’t realize there are LEADERs living and breathing and in Los Angeles, CA. I look forward to meeting some day soon, and sharing the Mystery—as wherever two are gathered the sharing becomes alive and recognizable. As for any “lurkers”– We are all searching or lurking for CHRIST TO ENTER OUR LIVES. When he is recognized the Mystic life becomes alive and a world opens and continues to prove to us that through sign after sign after sign that more is going on than meets the eye. God IS communicating to us in every moment. Look around, listen and take notice as you are a fingerprint on the hand of God. Uniquely original and with God wherever he touches. So see as I…..or don’t. It’s all in the details.
Have a glorious day.